So I have been wanting to write a piece about my hesitance
to talk about Conan to those who know a bit about it.
Most Joe public persons will probably not know much outside the films.
Those that have read the books will of course know more and it is these people to whom I am wary of sharing my love of Conan with.
Why so?
They will be aware of the inherent sexism, misogyny and racism.
There is no doubt REH was a product of his time, though that does not excuse it.
I could write for years about this and cite scores of examples from his works, however I will briefly touch upon some issues and invite you to respond via the comments.
Is it sexist first of all?
Yes, though not horribly so.
REH does have strong women, those that are physically capable such as Belit and Valeria (Red Sonja not actually being a REH character).
There are also characters like Yasmela and Yasmina (hmmm?) who are political rulers of nations.
The misogyny is also clear, though there is a case to argue it is something else.
Pretty much most of the females with a few notable exceptions are damsels in distress.
They either seek Conan’s aid and then throw themselves on him in gratitude, or get his help be it solicited or not, and then refuse his advances as he pushes himself onto them (uncomfortable yet, you really should be) until they yield. (because they are playing hard to get or actually he is sexually assaulting them and he simply overpowers them?)
The fact the women are supple, curved, heaving, pouting, lithe, supple, curved, etc does not nothing to help the case against the above.
It is often uncomfortable reading for me at times and I will ignore or think of some other reason to explain away his treatment of women.
Let me know your thoughts.
So I think it is fair to say there is some degree of sexism in Conan, but it is not as blatant as is the racism.
The Racism, is something that you simply can not deny, surely?
Conan is white (well bronzed but you know what I mean), the females who are objects of desire are white, in fact the paler they are the more desirable they are.
The evil savage characters are often black, and the blacker they are the more ancient and evil.
When Conan is described fighting it is all about his muscles, strength and vitality.
When the black characters are described, it is all about their black thews, ebony chests, black arms, black this etc..
REH likes to mention they are black an awful lot.
Anyway, as I noted above I could have written a lot more about this subject, but instead I would like for us to have a nice discussion about it in the comments section if you so feel inclined.
Next Up, What it is I actually LIKE about Conan!
Most Joe public persons will probably not know much outside the films.
Those that have read the books will of course know more and it is these people to whom I am wary of sharing my love of Conan with.
Why so?
They will be aware of the inherent sexism, misogyny and racism.
There is no doubt REH was a product of his time, though that does not excuse it.
I could write for years about this and cite scores of examples from his works, however I will briefly touch upon some issues and invite you to respond via the comments.
Is it sexist first of all?
Yes, though not horribly so.
REH does have strong women, those that are physically capable such as Belit and Valeria (Red Sonja not actually being a REH character).
There are also characters like Yasmela and Yasmina (hmmm?) who are political rulers of nations.
The misogyny is also clear, though there is a case to argue it is something else.
Pretty much most of the females with a few notable exceptions are damsels in distress.
They either seek Conan’s aid and then throw themselves on him in gratitude, or get his help be it solicited or not, and then refuse his advances as he pushes himself onto them (uncomfortable yet, you really should be) until they yield. (because they are playing hard to get or actually he is sexually assaulting them and he simply overpowers them?)
The fact the women are supple, curved, heaving, pouting, lithe, supple, curved, etc does not nothing to help the case against the above.
It is often uncomfortable reading for me at times and I will ignore or think of some other reason to explain away his treatment of women.
Let me know your thoughts.
So I think it is fair to say there is some degree of sexism in Conan, but it is not as blatant as is the racism.
The Racism, is something that you simply can not deny, surely?
Conan is white (well bronzed but you know what I mean), the females who are objects of desire are white, in fact the paler they are the more desirable they are.
The evil savage characters are often black, and the blacker they are the more ancient and evil.
When Conan is described fighting it is all about his muscles, strength and vitality.
When the black characters are described, it is all about their black thews, ebony chests, black arms, black this etc..
REH likes to mention they are black an awful lot.
Anyway, as I noted above I could have written a lot more about this subject, but instead I would like for us to have a nice discussion about it in the comments section if you so feel inclined.
Next Up, What it is I actually LIKE about Conan!
Conan is British imperialism writ large: defeating the black menace through his superior fighting ability and body. Not to mention a fair bit of wishful thinking, since not many of REH's readers would have his body, or his prowess with fighting or with women.
ReplyDeleteBut those "heroic" characteristics havr survived into the present day. Just look at James Bond: he's the worst spy imaginable since everybody, including the villains, know who he is and who he works for from the get go. Bond, like Conan, is almost a comics superhero type of character.
Bond villains are also racial and/or foreign stereotypes. And Bond hasn't always asked politely before bedding his leading lady and/or other female characters.
Despite some mild diluting of all this, the Bond franchise is still going strong. As are the original books, which have been added to with various supplementary sequels and prequels.
Finally, western society is the domain of the straight white male. Most minorities are marginalised, and vilified when it is politically expedient. So it's no surprise that fictional characters are mostly strong and white men.
Agreed about Bond.
ReplyDelete"So it's no surprise that fictional characters are mostly strong and white men."
Indeed, but it is a shame.
Actually it´s great you mention this so soon. I will take a view from different angles.
ReplyDeleteI was far too young to think about such themes as I first read the books. Still, even back then I noticed that the stories had more depth to them than first seen. A few years later, as I was old enough, I watched the second movie and I was dissapointed in a way. It missed some of the things that I noticed in the books. And the comics. Shortly after that I watched the first one and was blown away. Still not like the books - but this was actually a movie that had some depth. And I reread the books again.
Well, this was at a time I was already trained in some of the views (politically) I would later adopt in much more radical way through reading a lot science fiction (Well, that ended up with an life long obsession....)
Anyway, I left the books in the dust for years because of this before I touched them again (buying a book during a stay in an hospital) - and actually rereading them again.
And there it was. Conan as protrayed by REH is actually a character with modern views of morality and a very modern "mercenary like" view on life. Even the fact that there are actually female warriors is very modern compared to the science fiction of the same time. We shouldn´t forget that the crew of the starship in the movie Forbidden Planet was ALL male and the depiction of the only woman in the cast. And this in a movie a quarter of a century later.
And this movie brings me to the next point - they were not only all male they were all white.
From this point of view - REH was quite modern!
(End of part one.... I write too much)
Part II. I agree on Scousebadger´s view. To a point. We shouldn´t forget that in this time there was a firm believe in the supremacy of the white race - which led to the catastrophe Hitler. And not only in Germany or the US but nearly in all Europe (including the Soviet Union).
ReplyDeleteIt was this that brought me to a point to ignore the whole genre in a whole. It even makes we very warily to whom I talk about that matter even now*.
So, yes it makes me uncomfortable in the public. But it makes me even more uncomfortable in myself.
There were a lot things about real history that gave me a lot to think about. Ever heard of European slaves in the Mediterranian? The sophistication of many Asian people? African HIGH PAYED miners
in 18th century Germany? Female Steppe warriors (and possibly Viking ones as well)? The modern ways of the Parthian people and later the Sassand Dynasty? The Kushan? The technology of the people in Kerala and Sri Lanka? And and and.
Don´t get me wrong. I like Howard´s stories. Without any doubts. But I don´t use them for my own game´s lore anymore because of my current knowledge.
I don´t have place in my mind for stereotypes.
*Interestingly, a few of my most extreme left-wing friends are great fans of REH - for them it´s simple: those are stories but reality is different.
Hope I didn´t kill any discussion now... Would like to hear the opinions of others on this matter too.
Not sure why your blog post would upset anyone, unless someone's turning a blind eye towards the truth.
ReplyDeleteThe points you stated are exactly why I'm not such a big Conan fan.
You do find this kind of racism in other novels from that era as well though.
The Alan Quatermain novels for example depict all black people as brutal heathen savages who have to be taught and controlled by civilized white man. And while there's 'She', she's an Arabian with an extremely white skin, who's waiting for her prince (Snowhite with a twist if you ask me)
A lot of recent films and books aren't any better though, many main protagonists or people in power are still white males, especially in action packed stories and fantasy.
One of the movies I watched on Netflix just the other day was 'Valerian'.
In the opening scene you see how the international space station expands and who greets all newcomers: Male white commanders.
"Not sure why your blog post would upset anyone, "
DeleteI am in a fair few FB Conan groups and they have their share of racist and misogynistic idiots who aspire to be just like Conan.
I have blocked a large number of them and had to leave a few groups as they are too icky.
I forgot that we're dealing with the internet here 🙄.
DeleteMike, I really have a problem with many of those people in those groups too. I was quite happy as you started your own groups (and this blog)
DeleteWouter, man, I just re-watched the Valerian beginning scene and you are right. I didn´t notice that before.
And I might add another thing. If you look at other examples of the genre you may find some that are far worse in this regard. And to just take one: the Gor novels from John Norman. Actually, I was kind of surprised that someone sees them as philosophical in any way.
ReplyDeletePersonally I started to read them for a few issues (they seemed quite popular since every small shop sold them) but with those I had a real problem.
Gor became unreadable quite early on, and not just because of the clunky storytelling.
ReplyDeleteIt's depiction of women was cringe worthy at best.
I actually gave Norman another try with the Telnarian Histories and was disapointed again.
DeleteSpeaking of the depiction of women I was quite surprised there is a Kajira (female slave) fetish scene out there.
I always find it quite funny when this guy refers to Nietzsche and it´s pretty obvious he didn´t understand him at all which is true for many people citing Nietzsche. People talk about him but never read him.
I've been thinking about this since I read it yesterday, and I think I have worked out where I stand. I recognise the discomfort of some people reading Howard's and other stories, but I don't feel it. I have concluded that it is in part because they are of the past, and represent the attitudes of the times, but mostly because I'm a white male, of middle class upbringing, and have become culturally inoculated to, and am not at the sharp end of, the '-isms'. Having worked this out, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it...
ReplyDeleteI think it is important to remember when the books were written, as they reflect some of the thoughts/attitudes of the time. You can see this in 18thC & 19thC literature as well, so nothing new here.
ReplyDeleteI think one thing that is being missed in this discussion is that we are viewing these writings from a modern western society that is very much concerned with offending others from real or imaginary slights. If you look at the fantasy writings of authors from Turkey, India, China, Kenya or Japan you will find that their characters/heroes are all ethnocentric as are their actions and beliefs. The enemies they face are generally the traditional enemies of their culture and their actions are usually predicated on the cultural and societal beliefs/norms of the writers. The Bible is no different, it has all of the same issues but it has just been institutionally accepted (I cringe that we attempt to keep our children from sex and violence on TV and movies and yet force them to read/allow them access to the violence, murder, lying and incest in the Bible because it is contained in a "holy" book). I am not bothered by the racism and sexism in the Conan stories because not only are they predicated on the world that REH constructed for Conan, which is based on altered history, but because they have no impact on my life (and that is with current society attempting to force white male middle class guilt upon me). I feel the same when I read about how medieval Normans looked down upon Gascons, or ancient Chinese feelings for other South Asian peoples. It doesn't touch my current world.
ReplyDeleteNow, I know nothing of REHs personal views. There are many authors that can write terrible things that they themselves have no belief or stake in, and I feel the work and the writer should not be confused as being one and the same just as a writer or murder fiction should not be considered to be a murderer himself less he commits the actual crime. Were REH writing in an attempt to influence politicians or have laws changed that were directly racist or misogynistic this would be a completely different argument.
So a product of his time? I'd say yes he was, especially seeing as the history and cultures he based his world on was/were not as well known as they are today. Perhaps his writings would have been different had he spent time among the Massai or Amazonian Pygmies or if he had several headstrong sisters growing up, but we will never know. Honestly, I think mostly REH was short on descriptors as well as having a bit of a stunted world and societal view.